Good Monring,

I have a somewhat odd question. In my current setup i  have

2x 633-t -(Cherry Fronts)
1x634-vac (Cherry Center)
2xBravus 8D (Cherry/Black Sub) - ( sold out of Cheery when i ordered second)
2x6B (Cherry rear surround)
TX-SR606 - Receiver
Silverstone CW03B-MT - Vista Media Center PC
Samsung ln46a750 - LCD TV
Samsung BD-P1500 - BlueRay Player
Monster HTS 3600 MKII - Power Center/Cleaner

My question is this, I have no need (currently) for upconversion. As my HTPC is 1080 as is the BlueRay Drive. I dont have any old players or anything as all my media including blueray (i have a BR drive in HTPC) can be streamed directly through my HTPC. So all i currently use is 2 HDMI inputs and 1 HDMI out on my 606. Given that i am all 6 series, the going theme seems to be that they want more WPC. And im ok with that, if its going to make a difference. But my room is like 10x12. I havnt used my 606 very much but i tested TrueHD audio and the recieve took it fine and it all seems to work just fine. But on the other hand i have put alot of money into this setup and i want it to be all it can. Even though i just bought the 606 i will buy something else if you say it will make a difference. I fully trust whatever you suggest :)

I would tend to think that 90 watts per channel is more than enough power to drive those speakers in such a small area.  The least sensitive speakers of your set up are the 6Bs, but they're in the surround position where they play a smaller role anyway. 

Does your set up sound like it's lacking anything?  If the answer to that question is no then I would go with my tried and true motto "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  If the answer is yes, then you might want to go with the 806 or a comparable receiver like the Denon 3809/8 as it will take at least 130 wpc for you to hear a real difference over what the 606 is giving you now. 

 

Thank you for the quick reply.

To answer the question, no i dont really feel like im missing anything, once i get it all setup with crossovers and whatnot im sure it would be fine. But then again i dont really know what im missing until i try the better option. If you dont think there is any reason to swich to a different receiver. I heard that you can go with an amp and decoder sepearatly, though i wouldnt even begin to know where to find such a thing. Any suggestions?

I actually think that quote is a bit mis-leading Jason....it's not the extra 40 WPC that is going to make the difference...Realistically you have to double your output wattage to hear an audible difference...

It's the larger power supply and capcitors found in the higher end models that make the difference.  Case in point...i would bet my hard earned dollar that A quality Multichannel amplifier( rated @ 100WPC x 7 ) would get just as loud and sound fuller, cleaner and have a larger soundstage than a Denon 3xxx series or Onkyo 800 series

That being said....Let it be known that the Denon 3xxx series AVR's are a significant step up in performance over an Onkyo 606. Same should be said with the SR-805....Why?  Not becuase the spec sheet says they have 40 more watts per channel but becuase they offer much larger power supplies and capcitors for providing cleaner fuller power.  It's the difference between your speakers sounding like a transistor radio and a bubble of surround ;)

Comparing a Denon 988, Yamaha RX-V661 and Onkyo 500 to a Denon 3xxx series... 

For me i don't notice much difference between how loud it gets.  All of them can make my ears uncomfortable but I notice a big difference in how full it sounds, how clean it sounds and how well all the speakers integrate together to make a more dnynamic and encapsulating soundstage.  The lesser models make my speakers sound like hollow boxes.  Throw the wattage rating out the window, it doesn't mean much.  Go by the power supply they put under the hood...There is a reason something weighs 40-50lbs vs something that weighs 26lbs....And the reason becomes a bit clearer when you head up into the Onkyo 800 and Denon 3XXX series (10-l5 more lbs of power supply and capicitors) And much more clear when you get into seperate amplifiers.

Sort of like eating sugar vs whole grains or using organic fertilizer vs synthetic....Don't feed your Aperions cheap carbs, they will thank you for it!

THANK YOU, very much for your reply.

That is what i was confused about. Was it really all about the WPC or do the higher end models provide a better cleaner sound. I keep hearing that nobody would reccomend the 606 for 6series. As its not nessecarily how load they can go but how good they can sound at a normal listening range. I dont know if im rabeling but hopefully you follow. 

So i will buy whatever is nessecary to get the highest quailty sound from my system. I am a huge believer in you get what you pay for, i have no problem paying extra for a high quality unit i will not have to worry about. 

So with all the receiver models out there, with the emphasis on sound production for maily movies. Exclusvily HDMI. What is the best receiver to buy. 

And likewise as i expressed earlier, i have heard of people buying at decoder and an amp, i guess essentially splitting up the receiver. Does anybody have any suggestions on what to buy to do this?

Just be careful....For the average Joe there is a point of diminishing returns.  Most people go to the store buy some highly sensitive plastic encased speakers and slap an Onkyo 606, Yamaha RX 6xx or equivalent receiver on it and are happy. 

 My experiences with Aperions is that they really deserve more than that.  Case in point...i've never been happy with the way my soundfield sounded with anything less than a 3xxx series Denon.  Before the 3xxx series the center channel sounded hollow and surround sound effects were weak.  The louder I turned it the more the speakers drew attention to themselves.I  ntegration was not good.

 If you really want to do yourself right look at an Onkyo SR-805.  Many a happy owner on this forum.  It's a compromise where you will get a big improvement over a standard AVR but you fall short of components.

 Also noticed you bought the 6B's for surround duties.  Those are some power hungry speakers and to be used as surround it may be a bit overkill, plus they are not timber matched for multichannel music.   Are you looking for cherry finish?  If so i would take a serious look at these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Aperion-Audio-Intimus-632-LR-Main-Stereo-Speaker_W0QQitemZ400004869897QQihZ027QQcategoryZ3276QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Or you could call Aperion and see if they have any 532's or 632's in open box.

Man..What I wouldn't give to have 2 8D's, 633T's, 634VAC, 632 L'Rs and an 805...Not to many systems in the neighborhood that could top that

Best of luck to you!

Thanks a bunch dan,

First i did see those on ebay, every once in a while i check to see if anybody puts anything up. I found it funny though. Aperion had A stock listed in close out of the 632 l/r for less than the ebay price about a week ago. But i went with the 6b's instead, because well, when in doubt, overkill!

 For the root of the question. Knowing that a step up will give me better sound i am ready to buy. But what are my options for an amp/decoder seperate. And i dont hear much about Pioneer Elite receivers here but they seem nice... any thoughts?

Dan:

Man..What I wouldn't give to have 2 8D's, 633T's, 634VAC, 632 L'Rs and an 805...Not to many systems in the neighborhood that could top that

Best of luck to you!

 

Its actually kinda funny, i was going to go from an 8d to a 10 or 12d but the cost of return shipping and other shipping, it just seemed like a better buy to simply buy another 8d :)

But hopefully you see why with all that, i dont want to power it with the dinky little thing, if they deserve so much more.

Remember that your distance from the speakers comes into play here, as you move farther from the speakers the SPL decreases and in your 10'X12' room I would imagine you are sitting quite close to those 6Bs, which again are by far the least sensitive of all of your speakers.

 
But if you really want to upgrade I think Dan's idea of the 805 is a good one as there are indeed some great deals to be had since it has been replaced by the 806, however the same is true of the Denon 3808 that Dan also referenced, although I doubt you can get one as cheap as what the 805 is going for currently. 

 
Pioneer Elites are high quality too, the comparable model would be the VSX-92TXH which will run you about $900 and has been out longer so the previous model the VSX-82TXS is probably going to be tougher to find. 

 

cucore:

Thanks a bunch dan,

 

First i did see those on ebay, every once in a while i check to see if anybody puts anything up. I found it funny though. Aperion had A stock listed in close out of the 632 l/r for less than the ebay price about a week ago. But i went with the 6b's instead, because well, when in doubt, overkill!

 For the root of the question. Knowing that a step up will give me better sound i am ready to buy. But what are my options for an amp/decoder seperate. And i dont hear much about Pioneer Elite receivers here but they seem nice... any thoughts?

My apologies but I don't have any experience with the Pioneer stuff.  I would look for the Pioneer equivalent of a Denon 3808 Onkyo 805.  As far as seperates go i would hold off on that until you give the AVR a try.  Both the Onkyo 800 series and Denon 3800 series have the capability to add seperate amps and both have good enough circuitry to produce good results as processors.  Also keep in mind the 606 doesnt have pre-amps so it doesn't offer you the option to add a seperate amp down the road. 

I would steer you away from the Denon 3xxx series only because of the cost.  I'm not sure you'd be getting more in terms or peformance going with the Denon over the Onkyo...That's why the 805 is popular.  It has very high quality power supply for a considerable amount less then the Denon model.

For the Record I own a used Ebay Denon AVR 3805...So it cost me around $250.  it doesn't have HDMI so i don't get the new audio from the blue rays...However, I have to say that the sound coming from Dolby Digital on it is much more enjoyable than the Uncompressed Audio coming from the Denon 988 which cost twice as much as the 3805 (ebay price).

If I were to ever upgrade my AVR-3805 so that I could get Uncompressed Audio I would either get the SR-805 or a blue ray player that internally decodes all formats and has multichannel ouputs.  I wouldn't get a 3808 becuase they are soo expensive vs the 805..

So to recap...I would recommend getting some 632's or 532's for rear duty and look into getting an SR-805 over almost anything if it is in your budget. Perfect blend of performance, features and flexibility. You just may find that the 805 will meet all your needs! 

Here is a reputable place to get a certified refurbished 805 with warranty $549  www.accessories4less.com

Dan:

 

I actually think that quote is a bit mis-leading Jason....it's not the extra 40 WPC that is going to make the difference...Realistically you have to double your output wattage to hear an audible difference...

It's the larger power supply and capcitors found in the higher end models that make the difference.  Case in point...i would bet my hard earned dollar that A quality Multichannel amplifier( rated @ 100WPC x 7 ) would get just as loud and sound fuller, cleaner and have a larger soundstage than a Denon 3xxx series or Onkyo 800 series

That being said....Let it be known that the Denon 3xxx series AVR's are a significant step up in performance over an Onkyo 606. Same should be said with the SR-805....Why?  Not becuase the spec sheet says they have 40 more watts per channel but becuase they offer much larger power supplies and capcitors for providing cleaner fuller power.  It's the difference between your speakers sounding like a transistor radio and a bubble of surround ;)

Comparing a Denon 988, Yamaha RX-V661 and Onkyo 500 to a Denon 3xxx series... 

For me i don't notice much difference between how loud it gets.  All of them can make my ears uncomfortable but I notice a big difference in how full it sounds, how clean it sounds and how well all the speakers integrate together to make a more dnynamic and encapsulating soundstage.  The lesser models make my speakers sound like hollow boxes.  Throw the wattage rating out the window, it doesn't mean much.  Go by the power supply they put under the hood...There is a reason something weighs 40-50lbs vs something that weighs 26lbs....And the reason becomes a bit clearer when you head up into the Onkyo 800 and Denon 3XXX series (10-l5 more lbs of power supply and capicitors) And much more clear when you get into seperate amplifiers.

Sort of like eating sugar vs whole grains or using organic fertilizer vs synthetic....Don't feed your Aperions cheap carbs, they will thank you for it!

 

You're right the caps and power supply do trump the wpc when you are talking about a 40 wpc difference, although I did say that was the minimum step up that he should consider in order for it to be worth it. 

I'm still not sure that there is going to be a huge difference in terms of soundstage and fullness in such a small space. 
 

Just for the record I wasn't trying to throw you under the bus or taint your Guru reputation.

In a small room i think they will be able to experience loudness... 

I was just trying to share some of my experience with the poster...I have spent many a countless night trying to figure out why i could not get my golden soundstage to sound like it did with my 3805...

For me there was something missing in comparing the Denon AVR-3805 with the RXV-661, Onkyo 500 and AVR-988. Speaker intergration and transparency was not as good.  Dialouge coming from my Center channel did not sound as natural, it sounded hollow. Sound effects were weaker.

Even putting my ear up to the speaker I could tell an apparent difference. 

It's not just the power supplies you get with these upgraded AVR's and components...You also get improved sound processing technology and better audio components.  I would say the pefromance jump is most notable when listening to anything less than a Denon 3800 series and anything less than an Onkyo 800 series.  These two series is when you start to get yourself into upgraded power and components..

I want to thank you both very much!!!

I really like the look of the Pioneer Elits. In either the 92TXH or the 94. I was able to find the 82txh for 600 new on ebay.

Here is my problem, All the lovely things we have talked about today, i dont understand any of it. They reference THD and all these other prossing things and i dont understand what they do and if its even anythign i would use. What is even the difference between the 82 and 92. 

I can get an 82 for 600 new|
i can get a 92 for 700 refurb
i can get a 94 for 900 refurb

Or i could always go with the 805, just didnt like the look of it all that much. 

Please let me know your thoughts.

Dan:

Just for the record I wasn't trying to throw you under the bus or taint your Guru reputation.

In a small room i think they will be able to experience loudness... 

I was just trying to share some of my experience with the poster...I have spent many a countless night trying to figure out why i could not get my golden soundstage to sound like it did with my 3805...

For me there was something missing in comparing the Denon AVR-3805 with the RXV-661, Onkyo 500 and AVR-988. Speaker intergration and transparency was not as good.  Dialouge coming from my Center channel did not sound as natural, it sounded hollow. Sound effects were weaker.

Even putting my ear up to the speaker I could tell an apparent difference. 

It's not just the power supplies you get with these upgraded AVR's and components...You also get improved sound processing technology and better audio components.  I would say the pefromance jump is most notable when listening to anything less than a Denon 3800 series and anything less than an Onkyo 800 series.  These two series is when you start to get yourself into upgraded power and components..

 
No worries, just because this is my job doesn't mean there isn't room for me to increase my knowledge, that's one of the coolest things about audio there's always so much more to learn!

Of course you sharing your experience is immensely valuable, especially if it saves someone the hassle of getting into a set up that doesn't serve their needs.  I know I greatly appreciate guys like you, Russ and Scottiemon giving your input because at the end of the day the more viewpoints we have here the more valuable of a resource this forum becomes. 

Regardless, I think we are on the same page here even if I wasn't communicating my reasoning as clearly as I could have, if cucore wants to upgrade he will be hard pressed to find a better choice than the 805.
 

Fine... If you both so unanimously agree that an 805/806 is the absolute best way to go that is what i will buy. And just to confirm there is no need for me to step up to the 900 series or above?

THANKS :)