A few observations –
Let me begin by speaking to Dan for my comment from last week: I’ve popped a few doozies in my time but that one was unwarranted. Please accept my apology.
Dan - I’m in agreement with Jack that your posts are beneficial to others on this forum, and nothing speaks louder and more convincingly than sincerity, first-hand experience and a willingness to share, so keep on contributing.
I don’t know your definition of LOUD, but jrhooper1963 provides an informed and excellent solution to your desire for more SPL. I’d keep that “little” (7 x 90 WPC is not little) Yamaha and look seriously at the small towers: another 5 dB, and 8 ohms, will help a lot, and I suspect you’ll immediately notice the difference. I’ve seen the pics of your system (very nice, and one of the cleanest jobs of cable-management I’ve seen…well done!), and your room could accommodate the small towers without becoming overwhelmed by BIG (suggest you beg for some WAF before you leap).
Jack and JRH also give “sound” advice (pun intended) on not going with larger but less sensitive speakers if you want more LOUD…that’s entirely the wrong direction unless you’re willing to invest in substantially more power. JRH’s suggestion makes far more sense to me.
To clarify your post on this thread from 05/07/2008: “I believe it was Fred who basically asked aperion what advantages they saw in lowering the sensitivity and in some cases the impedance of their new speaker line. I’m just wondering if they ever gave an answer?”
- I will admit to being one of those who’ve posed this question, but there were others before me (and for whom this concern was of greater importance than it is for me).
- No, I don’t believe Aperion ever responded, or even properly addressed this matter for anyone making inquiry (just my opinion).
Finally, Dan, maintain your passion for this hobby. I can tell you from my own experience that it’s most enjoyable and rewarding. Be aware, however, that if you lose control (and this can happen quite easily) and allow it to become addictive (upgradeitus), it can dig deep into your checking account…and I speak from experience. But, most importantly, continue to share…because your opinion does make a difference.
rockarruda – my apology to you as well. I do have a sense of humor…most of the time. But last week it was evidently residing where the moon don’t shine. No excuses.
A BS in Physics…this discipline continues to befuddle me…I did, however, pass (if only by the Grace of God). And dmgoodman’s post of: “Physics degree - that tells us where you will line up in the Fact vs. Conjecture debates. Liberal Arts guy here so I think facts just get in the way of my reality.”? That was pretty good, and I’m still laughing! Appears to me that Mike has officially consigned you to the side of righteousness, whether you like it or not…and that’s more than OK with me! After all, anyone who understands the concepts of cipherin’ and gravity can only help to balance the equation. Ain’t many of us left and still residing on the dark side brothah, so it’s imperative we stick togethah…bubba ;-)
Concerning this thread –
Jack: thanks for your inclusion of the SPL graph on this thread. I wish I’d thought to include something like this since it so nicely ties into what my wordy post was attempting to explain…and I posted the condensed version, believe it or not! Confirms the adage: never ask an engineer the time; before you know it they’re telling you how to build the watch.
I sincerely hope that others on this forum will take the time to study this graph…there’s a ton of info available in that fella’ that clearly shows the power requirements needed for speakers of varying levels of sensitivity.
One last observation concerning my crusade for clean SPL (my passion back then). By the time I finally discovered efficient speakers, I had evolved through two receivers with pairs of AR-2ax and Large Advents, and had finally begun building my system with separates: my anchors were a McIntosh C-27 and a Marantz 510M. Even this wasn’t enough for my room at the time (24’ x 22’ x 10’) so I finally bought a pair of Belle Klipsch for my front channels (104 dB @ 1W/1m, 8 ohm, 117 dB max SPL, still beautiful and, IMHO, really personified thundering elegance with the best attack of any speaker I’d heard back then). Rears were later parallel-fed from the Mac to an Advent Soundspace 500 feeding a Hafler DH-200K, and powering Klipsch kg-4s (my present fronts, 94 dB @ 1W/1m, 6 ohm). A sub wasn’t needed for a music guy like me and this system could ROCK. I mentioned earlier on this thread that “I could entertain the neighborhood with this setup”…my wife has suggested that I be more honest and change that to annoy - but that’s her opinion!
A 510M powering Belles…anyone here thinking overkill? Well, I already had the Marantz (five years old) and by that time had really developed a fondness for my little badboy (sorry…now I’m feeling bubbly – and no apology is offered). However, this was the acoustical equivalent of a locomotive pulling a skateboard. Hence, my observation on “If I had it to do over…”, and the primary reason for this thread.
End of sermon.
A thought-or-three for all of you speaker-builders out there: I dabbled some in this area a long time ago but gave up since it’s so time-consuming and my woodworking skills left something to be desired (you’ve really got to have the passion to roll-your-own). My “creations” were solid and one of them really sounded pretty good to me (a three-way vertical-array AS w/two 8” woofs, two dome mids, and a single fabric-dome tweet), but confess they didn’t have the polish when viewed from closer than 5-10 feet: even Stevie Wonder might have been (justifiably) critical of my efforts. I still enjoy reading about this subject and seeing what other DIY’ers are up to…there are some really creative folks out there!
More seriously -
An excellent tome on speaker building is Vance Dickason’s “The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook”. Since I’ve lost interest I don’t own this manual, but I still have Xerox’ed copies of chapters that pertained to areas of appeal for me (AS, PR, and Isobaric, and I really wanted to try an Iso). This is a somewhat technical read and probably of interest only if you’re serious about understanding the relationships of speakers and design, and which speaker characteristics are suitable for a particular type of enclosure or alignment. There’s a lot of software presently available that will do all of this for you, and especially if you have the T-S parameters available; Madisound was an excellent source a few years ago (probably still is) with the most detailed cut-sheets I’ve seen. If you’re lazy, buy the software. If you’re truly interested, and want to learn and understand, then turn off your PC, find your calculator and graph paper, work a couple of examples, and study your results…meaning - get involved. If you’re still interested, then NOW buy the software (because now you’ll have a better understanding of the results and printouts your PC will deliver).
Less technical but every bit as valuable and informative (IMHO) is Abraham Cohen’s “Hi-Fi Loudspeakers and Enclosures”, a book first published in 1956 (my copy is a well-worn Revised Second Edition, 1968). Is this even relevant??? Yes, but Dickason’s manual is better for speaker design since it’s more current.
I’d recommend Cohen’s book to anyone who’s interested in sound. There are several interesting chapters discussing acoustics and measurement, and with explanations of how power, efficiency and impedance interact and affect SPL. All of this is written in layman’s terms and easily understood. This book also contains useful discussions on how sound is generated, propagates, decays with distance, and interacts with the room. Highly recommended reading.
I know there are other books out there discussing the same stuff, but these are two with which I’m familiar.
Scottiemon – thanks for your numerous contributions, and especially for your explanations on the video-side of things that I’ve found most informative and helpful. Also, thanks for your patience and assistance in helping this old audio guy to better understand the shorthand and acronyms used in posting, as well as stealthily navigating electronic communication. And before I forget…generate any “smoke”? ;-)
Finally: my thanks to Aperion for providing such a useful vehicle for the sharing of information and opinion, and for allowing me to play (even when I’ve challenged you, or shown my tail).
Fred
P.S. –
Hey, Jackson? You need to stick around and keep on posting. If this forum ever awards an MVP for knowledge, discovery, and the posting of info beneficial to readers through contribution…the rest of us are playing catch-up.