Hi Fred:

just a couple of comments on your excellent post.

I agree that Aperion needs to provide more documentation on how to properly set-up/equalize the subs. (I am sure that they are working on this).
There is a U course on this, but it is pretty general and not specific to the new subs.  Making a mic and SPL meter available also makes good sense (an SPL meter is already available and supplied with 5.1 and above systems I believe).  And I have already commented on the controls and IR codes.

As for the proximity to a wall, that is a very interesting question and one I wondered about myself.  I can say that when I listened to them they were about eight inches from the wall and sounded great.  Though I fully admit that my ears are far from being able to accurately assess the actual room acoustics and we did not measure anything.  I think this would be an excellent question for the experts behind the scenes to address (Bob, Ken: please forgive for shining the spotlight on you!).

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but how many bands does the built-in EQ in the new subs have?

Stretch,

Since it's a parametric EQ covering only the bass range, I suspect there's only one.  This type of EQ isn't the same thing as what was available in the past where EQ was provided for on an octave basis, and covering the range of 20 Hz to 20K Hz.

EQ is useful and highly desirable in correcting irregularities that occur in any room.  But adjustment by ear can be difficult and time-consuming.  This is the main reason that modern AVRs provide automated setup.

Stay tuned.

Fred

Hi, Ken

 

Thanks for your feedback. 

 

I can get past the unbalanced look (a soft issue for me) especially if purchased with the black finish.  That small (‘Atta boy, Aperion!) dual-8 is probably ideal for my room, WAF, corner placement and interest in music (I don’t need 20 Hz at 115 dB to flex my walls, windows, flutter the curtains, or experience an earthquake).  Price increase of unit not that big of a deal to me since it’s still within my range of affordability.  Inclusion of a remote with codes for my Harmony is a real plus.  Almost the perfect sub for my application. 

 

Only obstacle for me is the manual EQ which I know is going to be a real bear to accurately calibrate.  Even with the flexibility afforded by its user adjustments, there are at least three variables involved: amplitude, center frequency, and width (all of which affect its “Q”).  And I suspect the adjustment of one will affect the others…making this a real time-consuming back-and-forth process.  I’m not even sure how to provide some type of signal (white noise?) to obtain a response curve with a SPL meter.  As I mentioned, I wish Aperion had made provision for an automated setup.  Being an engineer, I’m probably going to wonder if I’ve set it up accurately regardless of how good it might sound to me.  But, what the heck – I’ve posted before of how important it is to play with our systems (get involved), so maybe it’s time I start eating my own cooking!

 

Having said this, I’m impressed with the new Bravus 8” and will probably grab this little fella’!

 

My discussion of proximity and placement won’t be a concern for me, but I mentioned it as a consideration for others since any sub needs room to “breathe”, and Aperion’s mention of 2” doesn’t seem to be nearly enough (at least to me).  But this is something that Aperion can address (did you mean to put them on the spot?!)

 

Thanks for posting your observations regarding the new Aperion speakers…first-hand impressions interest me.  I will be replacing my floor-standers with smaller bookshelf units, and I’ve been looking at the 532 LR model.  Since these are now le morte, a few questions concerning one of your comments.

 

You mention “The highs are not as bright and yet more pronounced/crisper.”  By “bright”, do you mean shrill, grating or annoying (a criticism)?  Or do you mean that “bright” is something you miss (complimentary)? 

 

I ask because, as I continue my aging process (now in my late-fifties), I’ve recently developed a ringing in my ears, have noticed that I’m now running my AVR with its treble wide open, and music with which I’m very familiar now sounds different in how I remember it from years past.  I believe I’m now at the point where I need a really hot high end, and this was one area where all of my Klipsch speakers excelled.  To me, and out-of-the-box, the hotter the better…if too “bright”, I can always turn down the treble.  The HF delivery and presentation is really important to me since this range contains so much content and detail.  I’m interested in your opinion.

 

Finally, an observation and request. 

 

You’re obviously acquainted with people at Aperion.  Ask them to respond to the power consumption of the new subs that’s been posted on this forum more than once.

 

Fred

Got my D10 today. Hooked it up immediately and played Gerry Mulligan meets Johnny Hodges CD and whew! I was blown by the bass lines. Later played Ratatouille DVD. The music was far better than the movie!

 One annoyance: Placed the Sub in the corner (behind TV and the 533-T). The remote doesn't seem to control it much. I had to keep pressing the buttons and still wasn't able to see the display on the Sub light up. Problem with my remote? I had bend and squeeze into the corner and adjust the settings.

Hey Fred,

I agree that getting a sub set-up properly (along with the rest of the system) is a difficult task.  I have a large open space (living, family, dining, kitchen is all open) that is extremely live (hardwood floors, lots of windows, sliders, etc).  I have done lots of experiments with trying to tune the sound, but I can only do so much (WAF excludes things such as sound treatments and relocating subs to alternate positions).  I knew this going in since we made the trade-off to have an open environment rather than a dedicated home theater room, so I say it is good enough (and it does sound great to me). 

I sympathize with the aging process, I am definitely losing the high end in my ears (really annoying part of aging along with the aches and pains that don't vanish over night any longer).  I only listened to the 5Ts for about 15 mins, so it truly was a first impression.  With respect to your question, yes I thought the highs were a bit bright/shrill and the mids a little too much in your face (overly emphasized) on the old 533-T.  However, this may all be a matter of taste/preference.  I thought the new 5T's biggest difference was in the mids where they have a more even response across the spectrum and go a bit deeper giving them the warmer tone I mentioned (again, this is my perception).  I thought the difference in the highs were more subtle.  Again, slightly less bright/shrill but more detailed.  I really don't think they were that bright to begin with, just trying to highlight the difference.

Living in the Portland area, it is a nice benefit to walk in and say hello, listen to the latest gear, and shoot the breeze with the guys.  If you ever get a chance to visit here, let me know and we could go down and have a listen/chat.

 

Hi, Ken

 

Thanks for your response. 

 

I’ve got the sub down to Aperion’s dual-8 or the 10” competition w/auto-EQ, so struggling a bit - …but leaning more toward Aperion with the realization (resignation?) that I’ll have to start practicing what I preach (the EQ thing).  But I really like Aperion’s approach, feel it’s a better design for my application, and will likely be worth the effort…but I still wish Aperion had done this for me.

 

Not so sure what I’m going to do with replacing my floor-standers just yet, and no mad rush since I have a pair of Klipsch kg-2.5s that have been boxed in my attic for the past 8 years.  I’ll probably dust them off and see how they sound, but I don’t remember them having the high end of my kg-4s.  However, your mention of the “shrill” and “in your face” presentation for the older Aperion’s is probably what I need to compensate for my loss, so thanks for your observations.  For now I’ll just sit back and wait on the feedback from owners of the new stuff.

 

Aging is something of a bummer, and especially so for me with my diminished HF perception (more so than the aches and pains thing).  Even though I’ve worked in manufacturing enviro’s since the early 70s, I’ve religiously worn hearing protection (even while mowing my lawn!) since I’ve had an interest (wife calls it’s an addiction) in audio stuff since before my teens.  Such is life.

 

I still have family in the PNW (SeaTac) so; if I’m ever in your area I’ll give you some notice.  Thanks for the invite.

 

Fred

I was looking at both the Denon 2808ci and the Yamaha RX-V1800, but I am leaning toward the Yamaha.  What is your take?

I have tried both receivers in home.  I first started with an Onkyo 705.  For movies, I thought this was a very capable receiver.  I wasn't as impressed for music.  Also regarding build quality, I could see where they saved a few $$.  But this is certainly an awesome receiver for around $600.

I switched the Onkyo for the Denon 2808CI.  I really enjoyed the sound quality for both movies and music.  I do think the Onkyo was just as powerful as the Denon, so the extra 10 watts/ch doesn't mean much.  But I will warn you, the Denon 2808CI (and 3808CI) are a real pain-in-the-ass to configure.  And even worst, the remote is by far the worst remote ever made.  It is completely useless.  I can detail more if you need, but trust me, it does suck!  Also, 2 HDMI inputs is just not enough.  I though I could look past this, but after wiring my system, I purchased a Blu-ray player, so I ran out of HDMI inputs.  Needless to say, it went back.  btw... I've got several friends with high end Denon receivers, and they did warn me about the complexities of the receivers and the remote, but for some reason, I choose to ignore their advice.  If you're confident in your HT knowledge, this may not apply to you.  Also if you have kids, the remote is off limits.  My daughter picked up the remote, touched a single button, and it took me an hour to get video to appear again.  The remote is that bad.  Remember, you don't get OSD through HDMI inputs (for any of these mid-level receivers).

I finally settled on the Yamaha RX-V1800.  It has a very "warm" sound, tons of power, and 4 HDMI inputs.  The only drawback is that you can only specify a single crossover setting for ALL speakers set to small.  For me this isn't a problem since I had the same crossover setting when I used the Onkyo and Denon.  Depending on your front/surround speakers, you may want to give this some thought.  I have my center and 4 surrounds all set to the same crossover, and it works nicely for me.   The build quality on the Yamaha as well as the Denon are top-notch. 

Anyway, be glad to offer any more detail if you'd like.

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

Thanks JoeZ.  I am going to order the 5T towers, the 5C center channel, the Bravus 10D sub, and two in ceiling speakers as surrounds.  How do you think the Yamaha will perform with these speakers?

I know were not comparing apples to apples here but I just unplugged my Onkyo 505 reciever  in favor of a 6 year old Yamaha HTR 5250 last night.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200174&CTID=5000400

The 505 Onkyo is very similar to the 605 in terms of internal processing components I hear..

Anyway I agree that the Onkyo was adequate for surround TV listening and 5.1 surround however when it comes to 2.1 channel stereo it sounded weak, hollow and didn't image to well.  The Yamaha, I thought was way fuller provided a large soundstage presence with very little volume and was music to my ears :) I'm not sure how you would describe warm though?  Granted this thing is 6 years old, but in the future I am going to look up Yamaha when i look for mid-priced receivers.

 

BTW...to those lucky enough to own a new Bravus, where are the stinkin reviews at?

You are going to be extremely pleased with the system.  I have the 533-T, 533-VAC, 534-SS, 632-IC (in ceilings) and just received my new Bravus 10D today (replacing the S-10).  My wife complained about the $$, but she's the first to sit her bony butt in the theater seats.  We couldn't be happier.  I'm viewing this through a new Sony 60" SXRD.  I've pretty much ignored the auto setup procedures though.  Through trial and error, you can do a much better job.  But for the first night or so, let the system do the calibrating for you.

I purchased the Yammy through J&R online.  I got it for $850, so PLEASE don't waste your money at BB or CC.  I originally purchased the Denon for $850, didn't like it, they paid the shipping back, and sent out the Yamaha for the same price.  They don't usually do this, but I've bought a ton of stuff from them over the years. 

As I mentioned, I just received the Bravus 10D this morning.  I haven't had a chance to test it, but first impressions, AWESOME.  The look-and-feel is soooo upscale.   First thing to hit me is the size.  The few fewer inches in height and depth from the S-10 gives it some serious WAF nods.  I have the piano black finish, so the remote sensor on the front is barely noticable from a few feet away. 

Aperion, nice touch with the carpet/hardwood feet!!!   From looks alone, you have a winner.  I'll post an update tonight when I run through some Blu-rays.

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

dlenart:

BTW...to those lucky enough to own a new Bravus, where are the stinkin reviews at?

Sorry dlenart, just going to have to wait.  Unfortunately I have to pay the bills during the day, but I will do some testing tonight (they're predicting storms down south, so hopefully I'll get the opportunity). 

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

Thanks for the advice.  All of this is going into our living area, so I hope it is not too much.

dlenart:

Anyway I agree that the Onkyo was adequate for surround TV listening and 5.1 surround however when it comes to 2.1 channel stereo it sounded weak, hollow and didn't image to well.  The Yamaha, I thought was way fuller provided a large soundstage presence with very little volume and was music to my ears :) I'm not sure how you would describe warm though?  

Correct, "warm" is difficult to explain.  After listening to the Onkyo 705 for a while (2.1 channel stereo), I was almost anxious to do something else.  For me (and that is meant for all current Onkyo 705 owners) I didn't find the sound relaxing.  I tried with and without the sub, but it didn't do my Aperions justice.  Movies, on the other hand, it held its own.   I have read other posts praising the 805 over the 705 for music. 

If you have the opportunity to home test these receivers, it is well worth it.  If you're on the fence between two, I even recommend paying the $30 or so to ship one back.  I can now say for MY system, I purchased the best sounding receiver and sleep well at night!

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM