Anybody have any hand on experience or thoughts on this AVR?  Opinions greatly appreciated.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/356.asp 

 

Thanks

DAn.

Hey Dan,

 

     As long as it accepts 7channel PCM you are good to go.. That is a nice receiver and you will find it to have probably what you are looking for.

 

rockarruda

Yeah that receiver is nice...you should also check out Harman Kardon 354.  I have the 254 which was released in May of this year and performs very very good.  The 354 has a little higher current and has the iPod dock.  Those are the main differences.  I've always had good luck with the HK receivers.  Never run hot and the high current power produces clean sound...especially with my 5T Hybrid HD system :)

---

Do or do not, there is no try.

Patrick:

Yeah that receiver is nice...you should also check out Harman Kardon 354.  I have the 254 which was released in May of this year and performs very very good.  The 354 has a little higher current and has the iPod dock.  Those are the main differences.  I've always had good luck with the HK receivers.  Never run hot and the high current power produces clean sound...especially with my 5T Hybrid HD system :)

 

I've wanted to get me an HK receiver for some time now. Something like their new 2 channel 3390. As you mentioned they have tons of high current power and sound great. And 80 watts per channel at mmmm, $229? Just seems too sweet a deal...Some day.

---

David Bolt
Aperion Audio Guru
www.aperionaudio.com

Hey Rock,

Sorry it doesn't do HDMI PCM audio for lossless audio.  However, it is well reviewed (except for its remote) has 120WPC (107WPC 5 channels driven) with a THD of .05 8ohms and .07 4 ohms.  Has a very large power supply and from what I have read sounds real good....

So I'm skimping out on Lossless codecs via HDMI for more power and cleaner sound...Which presents a question of theory....

Lets say you have a 90 WPC mid grade $500 AVR with the ability to play lossless audio via HDMI 1.1

Then lets say you and High End equipment that does not offer HDMI but has 125 WPC, and massive power supplies . 

Something along the lines of  a high end AVR or component seperates.  Only thing is you can only get Dobly Digital or DTS.  What's going to give better sound and perfromance with movies? Watching a lossles Codec with a 90WPC AVR via HDMI and blue Ray or Watching a DVD with a higher end AVR or pre/pro combo in dolby digitial or DTS?

I believe I know the answer but I'm just throwing this out there for people to ponder....Do you spend your money on features or do you spend your money on performance...There's a lot of performance to be had for the bargain shopper looking to purchase older equipment minus HDMI features,..

 

Davey Gravy:

Patrick:

Yeah that receiver is nice...you should also check out Harman Kardon 354.  I have the 254 which was released in May of this year and performs very very good.  The 354 has a little higher current and has the iPod dock.  Those are the main differences.  I've always had good luck with the HK receivers.  Never run hot and the high current power produces clean sound...especially with my 5T Hybrid HD system :)

 

I've wanted to get me an HK receiver for some time now. Something like their new 2 channel 3390. As you mentioned they have tons of high current power and sound great. And 80 watts per channel at mmmm, $229? Just seems too sweet a deal...Some day.

$229...either you need to ask Aperion for a raise, stop spending all your money on Speakers, influence the WAF or move in with a couple of buddies. :)

Ha, DG would have to get a GAF before he could start worrying about the WAF.  Zing!

---

Jason Hicks
Aperion Audio Guru

Hey Dan,

This is a really interesting topic that might even deserve its own string. Now that folks have had a chance to really dig into the lossless codecs for movies, how might they rate that benefit versus a receiver or re/pro combo without HDMI, but far more power?

Right now, I don't feel like the lossless codecs are really paying off just yet. I might feel differently if there were some more music oriented content out there but I feel like our Outlaw setup (sans HDMI processing of any sort) sounds a bit better than the Onkyo 875 setup with all its HDMI1.3 bells and whistles (I should point out that it packs a decent punch in the power department as well) 

I'm glad to see the technology here and prepped to move forward, but higher quality equipment still trumps the new codecs IMHO

---

Caleb Denison
Home Theater Guru
Aperionaudio.com

Yeah I do think it is an interesting topic.  Many of todays mid grade AVR's are popping HDMI's on there offering PCM converision of lossless audio...You are going to spend about $500 for one of these and get about 90WPC...However, if you go back 4-5 years you can get a high end used AVR for $300 minus HDMI that's going to give you 120-130 WPC, better power supplies and circuitry such as the AVR mentioned in this thread...I am very interested in comparing the peformance of this 120 WPC Denon 3805 to the newer Yamaha RX-V661 AVR which includes HDMI. Then I will be able to state whether or not it is worth it to pay more for HDMI or spend my money on more clean power.  Then down the road I'll throw in an old ADCOM 100WPC for $200...

BTW DG...GAFS and WAFS are overrated.  But they give you kids which are pretty cool.  Almost as cool as a new set of speakers :)

So, if it does not take PCM over HDMI, where does that leave you with the PS3? It only does PCM over HDMI. Optical I assume?

---

Scottiemon

Dan:

BTW DG...GAFS and WAFS are overrated.  But they give you kids which are pretty cool.  Almost as cool as a new set of speakers :)

I feel like this situation is double edged right now. There is no "approval factor" in place, but Friday and Saturday nights can geta bit lonely...Ahhh well. Poor me.

BTW Dan, Aperion is tossing around the idea to include children in the trade up program. What are your thoughts on that? If you're kids have a good attitude like yours, we may be able to do you a solid and get you some 5T's.

You're still responsible for shipping both ways though!

---

David Bolt
Aperion Audio Guru
www.aperionaudio.com

Jason Hicks:

Ha, DG would have to get a GAF before he could start worrying about the WAF.  Zing!

Jason has a MAF...Meezy approval factor. The women is tough! Guy has to sneak his CD/Poster/Music purchases in the house sometimes. Haha...

---

David Bolt
Aperion Audio Guru
www.aperionaudio.com

Davey Gravy:

Jason Hicks:

Ha, DG would have to get a GAF before he could start worrying about the WAF.  Zing!

Jason has a MAF...Meezy approval factor. The women is tough! Guy has to sneak his CD/Poster/Music purchases in the house sometimes. Haha...

 

Great, now everyone here has lost what little respect they had for me in the first place, thanks.   (I'm not entirely sure what this emoticon is supposed to convey but it seemed appropriate)

Unfortunately it's true, she rules with an iron fist, I guess that's the price I pay for her putting up with all of my other shenanigans, which are ample.

---

Jason Hicks
Aperion Audio Guru

Hey Dan,

 

     That is ain interesting comparison you have there between those two systems.  Hard for me to speak from experience because I went from a HTIB Yamaha to my Sony 3300ES AVR..(go ahead bash me)... I didn't see the need for the hdmi 1.3 whistles either so I opted for the 3300ES and saved a bunch of money since it accepts PCM.  Because I went up in speakers and avr the difference I heard was astounding.  Taking a look at the codecs of lossless to lossy there is a difference in bandwith of the signal and ofcourse its compression.  DD is usually around 648Kbps DTS is 1.5Mbps then the Lossless stuff gets around True HD = 4.0 Mbps Dts HD = 5/6 Mbps and PCM is almost at 7.0 Mbps..  Those differences are quite large.. but listening between the tracks on my current system the biggest difference is from DD to PCM.  Going from DTS to DTS-HD yields the smallest difference in sound.

 When I say difference in sound I mean the overall experience of the movie with sound dynamics and use of the surrounds.  So with the DD lossy signal the dynamics of sound say in gunshots and high action scenes is not very large, and the dynamic of PCM gives you pure ucompressed audio as it was recorded so to speak with full dynamic and use of the surrounds.  

Thinking about your comparison it could be argued that the higher end AVR with more power might be able to produce that dynamic virtually.  But some of the added detail in the sound track for the movie would not be present, so you would probably notice a difference in that aspect.

 I have the ACDC Live at Dottington Blu Ray and have played both the PCM and DD tracks.  Set to the same volume level the DD track seems very weak and the detail of the sound doesn't sound as realistic as the PCM track.  No increasing the volume of the DD track I could achieve the same level of sound but still the detail just isn't there.  Again this is using the same AVR to do the comparison which has no bearing on what you are trying to accomplish, but still I am able to verify audible difference between the PCM track and DD track on a blu ray..  

 I hope that helps out in some way...  Maybe another Denon to look at would be the 2308ci....  I am not sure what the WPC is rated for but I know it is at least 100WPC..  

I hope some of this helped..

 

Rockarruda

Davey Gravy:

Dan:

BTW DG...GAFS and WAFS are overrated.  But they give you kids which are pretty cool.  Almost as cool as a new set of speakers :)

 

BTW Dan, Aperion is tossing around the idea to include children in the trade up program. What are your thoughts on that? If you're kids have a good attitude like yours, we may be able to do you a solid and get you some 5T's.

You're still responsible for shipping both ways though!

Great, making fun of me becuase I don't own a pair of 5T's yet.  I see how it is.  3 kIds are epensive. I have to scavange ebay just to find audio equipment i can afford. It's tempting but I'll give the kids until the end of my trade up period to see how it goes..

 

Hey Roc.  some interesting information there.  Hmm, I'm wondering at what point you would notice the difference.  I mean obviously an RX-V661 playing a lossless PCM stream for Pirates is not going to sound as good as a 200 watt rotel/NAD/ADCoM  pre/pro playing it in dolby digital...But what about an Onkyo 805 playing dolby digital vs the Yamaha..Ya know?