Guys, I had a blast tonight.  I hooked up my new 6Ts/6C (7.2) surround system with a borrowed Emotiva UPA-7 (7 channel amp x 125).  No one should be allowed to have this much fun!  "I'm going to have to get me one of them"...  Funny thing, marketing.  My Yamaha is rated at 130 WPCx7, it's not in the same league as the Emotiva at 125 WPCx7.  Something for the newbies, WPC drops considerably going to 5.1 and 7.1.  With that said, even my Yamaha at the claimed 130 WPC is still ear shattering at reference levels.

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

Hi Joe,

 

You have the RX-V1800 I think.

 

I have an Onkyo 805 and its power supply is rated at 1140 Watts.

 

I know how some manufacturers tend to mislead with the WPC ratings. I think they consider that you will not be driving 7 channels with the same intensity applied to the fronts.

 

I think my 805 is capable of 130 WPC with 7 Channels driven. The 805 is beast and @ 51 pounds and a lot is due to the size of the transformer.

 

I also have a Sony rated at 110 WPC but it only has a 400-Watt power supply.

 

There is no way the Sony could even provide 60 WPC with 7 channels driven.

 

Is there any particular thing you can describe with differences at moderate levels between the Yamaha and Emotiva?

 

Jack

Hi JoeZ,

"Funny thing, marketing." 

Boy, have you touched a nerve with me!  This is something my good friend Jackson and I have discussed at length (privately) and I'm going to respond to this shortly, but right now I'm more interested in trying to help Dan with his trade-up decision.

I hope I don't cut loose with a rant (I've been described as a grumpy old man...sometimes rightly so) but this is a real sore subject with me and one foisted on unsuspecting consumers by manufacturers more interested in sales than honesty.

Fred

 

Joe give us a little more detail.  I came very close to purchasing a XPA-3 when they were on sale.  I have  a Denon 3808ci and would use a Emotiva to run the 6T's and 6C center.  I contacted Emotiva and they stated I would be able to tell the diffrence....clarity, power etc... at the time I was debating between replacing my Klipsch 12" sub or getting the Emotive.  Ended up replacing the sub (figured it would be more bang right away), it was I purchased a SV PB13 Ultra.  I believe you have one of those beasts also.  Anyways waitng to hear a more thorough comparison with/without the Emotiva.

---

24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence?

Joe,

Please do give more detail on this Emotiva manner.  I have been toying with the idea of Emotiva for a while. I currently have a pair of 6B's for my front channels being driven with an Onkyo 875, while in 2.1 mode it does get loud, I always wonder if I am getting the true dynamic power I desire with only 140 watts driving an 82db speaker. I have thought about upgrading to the 6T but I think it is much too big for my room vs. the XPA-2 rated at  250 watts per channel. It did win both Audioholics and Secrets, amplifier of the year, which speaks volumes. I haven't heard any Aperions hooked up to a true powerhouse amp. I currently have the best setup of all my friends and family, which is good and bad. I just feel that I could really make my 6B's come to life with that XPA-2, but the wife is running thin on patience with my quest for bigger and better. Aperion with Emotiva hypothetically sounds like a match made in heaven.

I also am interested in hearing about that amp since I was really thinking about getting one in the future.

At work, but I'll write something up this weekend. 

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

Hey guys, my friend wants his Emotiva back before I go on a trip, so I better get this down while it’s still fresh in my mind.  Here's my take on the Emotiva and Aperions (disclaimer:  I only have the amp for a few days so I doubt this qualifies as expert opinion).

Problems:  As soon as I wired the amp to my system, I noticed hissing from my 6Ts.  Considering I have 2 subs hooked in without issues, this was aggravating.  I wound up backing out almost all wires out of my system trying to locate the source.  Eventually the problem went away, but we never did isolate the cause.  Maybe we had a loose connection, don't know.  Luckily things got better from there.

Aesthetics:  The amp is very attractive, elegant, monster.  The UPA-7 tips the scales at 70+ pounds (and feels heavier).  The good news it feels like a tank, the bad news, you better have adequate support in your AV rack. I put on the floor.   It looks the part, trust me!

Power:  Amazing, this thing can juice.  Paired with the 6Ts, it will rock hard.  I would have to say this is Emotiva's strong point; it can produce quality amplification consistently.  Almost hard to believe this amp can be had for $600!!  It really puts my 130WPC receiver to shame.  This puppy rocks, I'd be a little concerned with bookshelf speakers and small floors with this amp, but the 6Ts had no trouble bringing it.

Sound:  Hmmm, I have to admit I was a bit disappointed.  I’m  not a huge 2 channel guy, but doing comparisons with my Yamaha, I actually preferred the Yamaha at modest levels.  I do think the 6Ts certainly responded quite well with the Emotiva when it was time to rock, but I'm sure that had more to do with Bravado than sound quality.  I tried a variety of music, and it performed well.  Some people have noticed increase mids or bass with the Emotiva, I can't say I noticed much improvement.  The 6Ts sounded just as open and natural as my AVR.  Movies, well that another story.  This amp friggin rocks.  TDK never sounded better.  It's so intimidating, it’s scary.  The dynamic range is sooo different than my Yamaha.  I still haven't recovered, it impressed me that much.  Keep in mind, this is a $600 7 channel amp, the definition of bang for your buck.

Summary:  Emotiva amps are a great value.  I absolutely recommend the amp for surround/movies.  And especially if paired with the 6Ts.  This is my application, I'm looking for some serious play.  If I were in the market for a 2 channel amp, I think I would spend a little more and look higher up on the food chain.  Maybe it depends on your listening taste (or possibly your age), but I didn't feel it was a must have for stereo listening.  Movies, is where this thing shines, it has so much raw power it’s addicting. 

Sorry to make this quick, but I'm spending a little time with my daughter before I hit the road.  Oh and btw...  I will be ordering the UPA-7 when (if) I replenish my funds.

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

Thanks for the write up Joe, very much appreciated. From what most people say, once they hear the Emotiva, they want one, and it's hard to beat their prices per quality. Just like the Aperions we enjoy. Thanks again and enjoy the trip.

Perfectly stated.  While I have been fortunate (so far) to be able to afford some nice AV gear, I never venture out my comfort zone.  Aperion and Emotiva provide that "warm" blanket for me. 

Ever since I hooked up my Yamaha to my original 7.1 system, I have been slightly disappointed in power output (same goes for Onkyo, Denon, etc.).  J&R simply made an offer I couldn't refuse on the Yamaha RX-V1800.  Since most manufacturers play the numbers game regarding WPC especially with AVRs, I will only be satisfied with an external amp.  All channels (7) driven at 125 watts for $599, that's a bargain.   And from the few days I had with the amp, the numbers were very impressive. 

Emotiva sells wonderful amps with 200wpc into 2, 3, and 5 channels (unfortunately their 7 channels 200watt amp goes for $1700 L).  Quite popular for a lot of folks, adding the XPA-3 3 channel amp to drive their fronts and center, and let their AVR drive the surrounds.  At 200 wpc, that’s some serious power.  Emotiva had an awesome deal on some of their 3/5 channel amps, but the special offer ended a few days ago.  Personally, I’ve been waiting for the right time (or another offer I can’t refuse).

Important to note, Emotiva is getting their fare share of attention right now.  Before jumping on the bandwagon, consider the slight complexity of an external amp; the additional wires, the potential for introducing unwanted hissing or humming, the weight of the darn thing, the heat, etc.  Getting a “loaner” amp really eased my concerns (I’m a true skeptic).  I “planned” for this amp in my new system going with a high end AV cabinet with adequate ventilation.  Not sure I mentioned this before, but the Emotiva ran considerably warmer than my Yamaha (expectantly so). 

The fanboy in me screams for an Emotiva amp, but everything in due time.  As I mentioned to Dan, slow and steady and you’ll make some wise decisions.

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T, 6C, 5DB, 6IC, Bravus 10Dx2
Monitor: JVC RS20U front projector with Stewart Velux 100" screen
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800
Blu-ray: Yamaha BD-S2900
Amplifier: Emotiva UPA-7
Conditioner: Panamax M5300PM

Thanks JoeZ for the write up and review, very much appreciated.  I almost pulled the trigger on a XPA-3 when they were having their super bowl sale going on.  I will also wait on the "sale" to happen again.  I have way too much time in the winter to look and check out all the A/V equipment.  But of course in the spring, summer and fall I barely have anytime to listen to my setup-go figure. I will go with a 3 channel just to drive my fronts and center @ 200WPC and let the Denon 3808ci run my surrounds. Anyways thanks again.

---

24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence?

Good points Joe!

Some people may just say I wanna add an amp.  But they don't think about how much it weighs, how big it is, the extra wiring, extra ventilation, etc.  some people who don't plan get it and have no where to put it.  so they are left with a mess in their setup.  You need things clean to avoid introducing noise and to impress the WAF

One thing i've noticed about Yamaha's, is they don't always meet their WPC ratings on bench tests but of course those tests don't always measure real world perfromance.  I noticed a big difference when I hooked up my Denon 3805 compared to the Yamaha RX-V661 and the Denon AVR-988.  The surround field from the 3805 was much more spacious and the Dialouge from the Center Channel was much stronger and open. I think it's ability to pump juice to 5 speakers and still put out 115 WPC vs 80 or so may have a difference.

Anyway, for most of us in an average living room environment the power from a good AVR should be more than plenty, especially with a pair of 6T's...I'm thinking, It's when you get that big HT to fill with multiple speakers, that you are really going to notice the difference!  Or when pushing a pair of speakers like a 6B..

I've never really had the desire to add an amp to my system, my thinking was that a larger more sensitive speaker would help out more than adding an amp?

I'd be interested to hear Jack and Fred's thoughts on this subject.

Dan are you sure you want to get Fred involved?:)  He has already stated don't get him started on WPC with AVR's.  Yeah I am still up in the air about a Emotiva Amp.  Wish there was somebody with one close to my proximity.  I may check in the Emotiva thread again, would be nice to listen in "my environment" as Joe had the privelage to do.  Anyways here is what Emotiva had to say when I emailed them awhile back.

Hello Roger,

Actually you would hear a huge difference with the XPA-3 vs. the built in amp of the receiver.  Even al low volume levels you should notice big differences in the clarity and detail of the sound but it will really shine at medium to high levels.  Also, but using the XPA-3 to drive your front speakers it will free up power within the receiver to run the surrounds which make them sound better as well.

I hope this helps and best regards,

 

---

24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence?

From JoeZ: “Funny thing, marketing.”

 

Boy, JoeZ, is it ever!

 

From Yamaha’s website for the RX-V1800: RMS Output Power (20Hz - 20kHz): 130W x 7

 

Test Bench measurements from Sound and Vision Magazine:

·         Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 158/281 W (22/24.5 dBW)*
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 103 W (20.1 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 55 W (17.4 dBW)

From Denon’s website for the AVR-4308ci:  Power Output; Watts Per Channel  140

Test Bench measurements from Sound and Vision Magazine:

·         Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 171/280 W (22.3/24.5 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 126 W (21 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 111 W (20.5 dBW)

I own an Onkyo TX-SR705, a 7.1 channel AVR advertised at 100 watts per channel, and have no complaints…it meets my present needs.  I couldn’t find a published test measurement for this model, but Sound and Vision did recently test its replacement, gave it an Editor’s Choice award, and called it “A VALUE MONSTER”.  S&V did not have a rating (that I could find) for 7-channel operation but their asterisk(ed) comment surprised even me.

 

Test Bench measurements from Sound and Vision Magazine:

·         Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 133/202 W (21.2/23.1 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 75 W* (18.8 dBW)
*Approximate result; with 5 or more channels driven the receiver protected, effectively shutting down, after approximately a half-second of drive at full output

 

Much has changed from the days (probably before the introduction of multi-channel AVRs) when reputable manufacturers would publish a specification for an amplifier, various agencies (CBS Technology Center, Hirsch-Houck Laboratories, etc.) would test it, and it was not uncommon for the results to exceed the manufacturer’s claims.

 

Perhaps something has changed?

 

JoeZ concluded: “My Yamaha is rated at 130 WPCx7, it's not in the same league as the Emotiva at 125 WPCx7.”

 

I briefly visited Emotiva’s site but didn’t find any test measurements for Joe’s model.  However, I suspect the Emotiva will meet (and maybe exceed) its published specs…anyone here care to venture a guess why?

 

Caveat emptor!

 

Fred

 

PS – no ranting this time…just the published facts. ;-)

Hey Fred,

 Have you found any bench test specs for 5 or 7 channels driven for the 805? I can't find any conclusive data but I have read that as you move higher on the THX certification (Ultra2 for the 805) it gets harder to get away with fudging the numbers. 

Anyway I'd be interested if you came across any data considering the change between the Yamaha's and the Denon's specs and that I've found my 30 year old stereo receiver (pioneer sx-1050 rated at 120wpc) sounds superior to the onkyo 805 for 2 channel music also at 120wpc I think. 

---

Speakers: Aperion 6T's, 6C, 4B's, and 8D
Receivers: Onkyo 805 and Pioneer SX-1050
DVD player: Oppo 981HD
TT: Pioneer PL-71
Amp Selector: Niles DPS-1